Telnet to pmcmoo.org Bakhtin Discussion 9/28/97 (#907) [CS (the continuing saga) (#260) ]

Bakhtin Discussion 9/28/97

The following is a slightly-edited transcript of the Bakhtin discussion which took place on September 28, 1997. Present were stencil, se'lavy and Green Candle. --------------------------

se'lavy says, "ok, is someone logging" Green_Candle thinks that this chapter was a good choice (yes, I'm logging) in terms of MOO stencil is logging disabled se'lavy points at stencil, thinks it was eir idea Green_Candle [to se'lavy]: though now, having spent a week in the Northwest, I am morally opposed to logging. se'lavy lafs >> rimshot << stencil chuckles Oh geez, don't laugh at that. se'lavy hoots like a spotted owl se'lavy can't help it, likes to laf Green_Candle sees why se' is addicted to living alone. stencil chuckle politely at all jokes se'lavy says, "I would like to read one of these greek adventures" se'lavy lafs n lafs Green_Candle [to se'lavy]: the ones mentioned? Yes, I hadn't even heard of most of them.

stencil is interested in Hellenism and the rise of Mystery Cults at the moment se'lavy asks, "have you read any of these?" stencil nope stencil says, "I have mostly looked at more modern uses of adventure time" se'lavy says, "an infinite string of suddenlys" se'lavy asks, "what would you consider a modern use of adventure time?" stencil says, "The adventures of Huckleberry Finn" se'lavy says, "it would be interesting to see if moo space could reproduce that" Green_Candle found a couple of his claims interesting:... stencil just wondered if it could be programmed Green_Candle says, "that the chronotope is an *artistically-expressed* phenomenon in literature" se'lavy says, "the experience of entering the condition of adventure, then exiting it with a strong of suddenlys in between" Green_Candle says, "(so it's about narrative, representation)" se'lavy asks, "meaning that it's not something experienced in real life?" stencil nods in agreement with GC se'lavy asks, "it's not mimesis?" Green_Candle thought that's what he was implying, yes.

se'lavy was trying to decide that

stencil says, "well the chronotope is seen as the basis fr how the individual comes to be represented in various forms of literature"

se'lavy asks, "the individual only can be represented in space/time?" se'lavy asks, "there has to be a representation of space/time to represent an individual?"

Green_Candle says, "Well, the way he expresses it is that "The image of man is always intrinsically chronotopic"."

se'lavy nods

stencil says, "the adventurer has concretely different characteristics in space and time later/other images of the individual"

se'lavy asks, "what about woman?" se'lavy heh

Green_Candle [to se'lavy]: With emphasis on the "time" element as opposed to the "space".

Green_Candle [to se'lavy]: she sews the adventurer's costumes.

se'lavy says, "yes, the different characteristics I'm just getting to" se'lavy says, "and is very interesting" se'lavy says, "the unchanging self" Green_Candle nods. se'lavy is just getting to the second form of litearture stencil says, "the adventurer is often infinitely repeatable: Sinbad" Green_Candle says, "or the unchanging relationship between the boy and the girl." se'lavy says, "and its mystery" se'lavy says, "love suddenly happens" se'lavy says, "and then just is"

SUDDENLY! They fell in love!

..

They lived happily ever after.

se'lavy says, "coup de foudre" se'lavy says, "yes" stencil asks, "page number?" se'lavy asks, "of love suddenly happening?" stencil hehs stencil says, "yes please" Green_Candle says, "89-90" stencil says, "ah yes" se'lavy says, "p. 90 "instantaneous passion" se'lavy says, "it is instantly as strong as it gets" se'lavy says, "it isn't tested and deepened" se'lavy says, "which I think you can argue for some change in huck" se'lavy says, "though more change in us as the episodes darken" se'lavy says, "right"

Green_Candle: "The gap, the pause, the hiatus that appears btwn. these 2

strictly adjacent biographical moments and in which...the entire novel is Green_Candle pants. se'lavy lafs se'lavy says, "yes, I found that fascinating"

Green_Candle says, "the 2 'strictly adjacent biographical moments' being instant love and its consummation." se'lavy says, "and each event exists in measured time" se'lavy says, "but the time overall is abstracted" se'lavy says, "as is space" stencil says, "people argue for change in Huck... I disagree... h lights out again.. any moral discovery is not moral discovery but a continuation of a

satire on morality itself" se'lavy says, "made me think of sci fi" Green_Candle [to se'lavy]: abstracted in what way? se'lavy says, "space without a home referent" se'lavy nods to the debate over huck se'lavy says, "I think though that these greek romances are even moreso"

stencil nods in agreement with GC... it works with something like Tom Jones se'lavy says, "a kind of timeless time and spaceless space" se'lavy says, "abstracted" stencil noticed how in the latest Star Trek it is almost impossible to kill

anyone se'lavy says, "ones not slogged through and experienced" se'lavy asks, "First Contact? or Voyager?" se'lavy asks, "or Deep Space Nine?" stencil says, "Voyager" se'lavy nods Green_Candle says, "mm...But the "time" of the rest of the novel -- the wars, the bride's kidnapping, the parents' dissent -- exist in a different time frame, one which progresses." se'lavy says, "well, doesn't sound like a sense of progress" se'lavy says, "just a series of "and then's" se'lavy says, "meetings and not meetings" se'lavy wants to read the one where the lady likes sex Green_Candle loved, btw, the list of "typical problems preventing the couple's

eventual marriage". stencil says, "events.... the basis of the adventure is book-marked by Romance

maybe?" se'lavy lafs n nods Green_Candle says, "Which included 'being sold into slavery, an attack by pirates, etc'" se'lavy says, "being offered up for sacrifice" Green_Candle laughs, yes, particularly that one. se'lavy hears monty python reading this chapter stencil asks, "don't you just hate that?" se'lavy asks, "book-marked?" stencil says, "make that book-ended" stencil says, "begining and end" stencil says, "slipping in marriage to an otherwise hectic schedule" se'lavy says, "and then nothing of the kind happens at all" se'lavy says, "is what the implication is" se'lavy says, "fall in love" se'lavy says, "stay true through all the prewedding problems" se'lavy says, "marry" se'lavy says, "end of problems" stencil says, "although there is no domesticity... getting up, having breakfast

together" se'lavy says, "that it's all just to affirm who they were as individuals" se'lavy says, "also that they are private" se'lavy says, "and the relevance of all events, wars, shipwrecks, etc. are to

them as private people" se'lavy found that interesting se'lavy says, "private people who don't have breakfast" stencil says, "well.. I read it as the "private" public distinction as not

existing" Green_Candle says, "mmm. And he says something along the lines of "and if it weren't this way, it wouldn't be a Greek romance or adventure, it'd be more European."

Green_Candle asks, "So what is it about the adventure story that is so important to this idea of chronotope, the way the time functions with the space?" se'lavy says, "and that the individual is passive--being is enough while being

tortured and carted about hither and yon" stencil says, "private happens only ni the hellenistic/roman context with the

development of the house and garden as the horizon of an individual's life" Green_Candle [to se'lavy]: right. They're more placeholders, pieces on a game

board moving around the spaces. se'lavy says, "p. 108" Green_Candle laughs 3rd-rate as being about "emancinpated women and so forth". se'lavy lafs n nods se'lavy says, "they are without social being, they are private, isolated" se'